The psychedelic torchbearers lock themselves in the studio, play all the instruments, and open a treasure chest of effects to form a band and make an album.
At first thought, pairing Les Claypool with Sean Lennon doesn’t make sense. Claypool is the mad genius behind Primus, a thumb-thumping bass god, and an idiosyncratic stylist. His aesthetic sensibilities were formed in a galaxy light years away from Lennon’s song-centric, multi-layered, colorful universe. You wouldn’t think to put them together. But when you do … wow. Like chocolate and peanut butter, coffee and cigarettes, or Bob Dylan and electricity, their disparate worlds merge in a Vulcan mind meld. It’s an obvious why-didn’t-I-think-of-that collaboration—organic and natural.
And their music—retro, ’60s-era psychedelia with a twist—flows with obvious synergy. It’s a fresh concoction and a unique blend, but doesn’t obscure the personalities of its coleaders. In part, that’s because Claypool and Lennon have a lot in common. “Sean keeps talking about how we’re bonded by fashion … or lack of,” Claypool says. “We’ve become very good friends. I think a fundamental element of becoming good friends with somebody is the notion that you appreciate similar things.”
The pair spent a few weeks last fall at Claypool’s home studio in Sonoma, California, to sample homemade wine and create Monolith of Phobos, their sprawling tripped-out new album. They collaborated on songwriting and production, played all the instruments, and handled all vocals. The album features many of their favorite tricks as well, like mind-numbing bass riffage, layered walls of feedback, and richly hued arrangements. But those aren’t gimmicks. They serve the songs, create a moody yet addictive atmosphere, and emphasize the duo’s shared sense of humor.
Claypool and Lennon rely on a boatload of gear to produce their psychedelic sounds, though their fans won’t find too many new devices. “I just remade my pedalboard,” Lennon says. “But it was more about the wiring than it was about the pedals I use. It’s pretty much the same stuff I’ve been using for a while.”
“I’ve got a plethora of things on the floor,” Claypool adds. “For me it’s more about convenience than anything, in which convenience means that I know it.” They’re using mostly the same guitars, basses, and amps they’ve been using for years as well, although Lennon recently started using BilT guitars. “I used to only play Fender Jazzmasters—old ones—but I really think the BilT guys make amazing guitars,” he says.
We spoke with Lennon and Claypool and discussed their collaboration, songwriting, arranging, live shows, gear, and why—for the first time ever—Lennon is okay covering the Beatles.
What was the genesis of this project? Lennon: My other band, the GOASTT [the Ghost of a Saber Tooth Tiger], had been touring for about two years. We wanted to finish touring because we needed a break, but then we got this call that Primus wanted us to come out. We were like, “Man, we’ve got to go out for this.” Even though it felt like we were done, we were such big Primus fans. We wound up hanging out with Les and his band and becoming friends. It was one of those tours where we became friends really quickly. I jammed on “Southbound Pachyderm” at one of their shows, and I think Les liked what I played, because we wound up writing songs together. The genesis was really on tour.
How did your songwriting collaboration work? Lennon: We discussed topics before. We’d been texting each other links to articles and cool stuff that might be cool topical ideas, but we didn’t have a lot of pre-written stuff. I went out to Sonoma and every day we would see if we could come up with something. We’d have something fleshed out from the night before—one of us would come in with some chord changes or some lyrics—then we would work it. We did a song every day or two for about two weeks and we were done. It happened really fast.
Claypool: He showed up and we started throwing ideas around. I think the first thing we worked on was a song called “Captain Lariat,” which I had roughed. I had the lyrics and together we fleshed the thing out. That was basically how we got up and running. He came in with something and I massaged it a bit and then I would come in with something. Usually, he would show up a little later in the day, so I would already be working in the studio.
What instruments did you play on the album? Claypool: I played drums on one track, which is odd, because usually when I do one of these projects of mine I’m playing most of the percussion and the drums. But Sean had a certain feel that I thought lent itself to what we were going for, which was the more sort of throwback retro-psychedelic thing. I played some keys and he played some keys, but basically he played guitar and I did bass. We both did vocals and he played most of the drums.
What did Sean bring to the table? What are his strengths as a guitarist and collaborator? Claypool: I think any strength in a musician in general—whether they are a guitar player or a … flautist—is the notion that they have a signature. I do feel like Sean has a pretty strong signature. I noticed that as soon as we started having our little jams in the back of the bus. He would come up with things that were unique. They weren’t just these general responses to what I was doing. I found that very intriguing.
How does that affect the way you play? Claypool: Any time you are making music with anybody it should be like a conversation. When you are having a conversation with an individual, whether you know them well or don’t know them well, whether they’re a fisherman or a brain surgeon, those conversations are going to vary accordingly. Musically it’s the same thing. Our musical conversations were unique unto themselves because of our fresh interaction.
Les is a very idiosyncratic and established player, did you find that liberating or limiting? Lennon: Definitely liberating. It wasn’t necessarily because of his virtuosity, because that could’ve been hard to just keep up with. It wound up being really inspiring and fun and easy because we got along well and play together well. I can’t really explain why that is the case, but it just is. What I offer to the chemistry of the equation is more about my songwriting ability and maybe my sense for production or arrangement. So maybe he likes that enough to make it worthwhile. It’s a good combination. I definitely can’t go toe-to-toe with him in terms of technique or athletic ability, so I don’t try to do that. It’s more like a yin and yang as opposed to a yang and yang.
One thing I found interesting is the bass does a lot of what a rhythm guitar would normally do. The guitar parts are often more linear or sonic. Lennon: I haven’t really thought much about that, but now that you mention it, I think it depends on the song. Some of the songs are super-chordal, like “Bubbles Burst” or “Boomerang Baby.” I wrote those on the guitar and then we fleshed them out like a regular band. I even wrote a chord chart for “Bubbles Burst.” “Captain Lariat,” “Mr. Wright,” “Oxycontin Girl,” and “Breath of a Salesman” he pretty much wrote on bass. His bass playing is so unique and so melodic and rhythmical at the same time. He plays a melody while also holding down a kind of thumpy rhythm. I think that covers a lot of the area that maybe traditional rhythm guitar would cover. So when you have a song like that, the guitar parts, if there are any, are going to wind up being more ornamental, decorative, or textural. You don’t always need to fill in that space because it’s already been done and done quite well. I try to syncopate with him a little bit or sculpt something that is custom-tailored to the shape of what he’s doing.
Claypool: I’m going to go back to the conversation thing. When I’m playing with someone like Sean, I try to complement what he’s doing. When something is coming from me, I assume he’s trying to complement what I’m doing. Within that arrangement there are various bits and pieces that we’re bringing to the table, and so there are parts where we’re more supportive or more dominant than others.
As far as general songwriting and arrangement, the bass just happens to be the crayon I picked out of the box. I say that quite a lot. If I had played guitar or trombone or keyboards, I would be playing very similar things. I would just have a much different timbre. For me, the bass is the most direct conduit from what is going on in my brain to what happens on paper or, in this case, on tape. I don’t necessarily think so much in terms of, “Is this a bass part or a rhythm guitar part?” It’s just, “What does the song need?” For this record, I used a little different instrumentation as far as the basses I used, supporting some of Sean’s parts and thinking back to the approach of some of these older psychedelic players. It’s a little different feeling than, say, a Primus record. But there are also very strong elements of what I’m known for.
While Sean Lennon’s band the Ghost of a Saber Tooth Tiger opened a 2015 tour for Primus, he and Les Claypool bonded and the foundation for the Claypool Lennon Delirium was laid.
How did you approach the arrangements? Adding extra layers, colors, and instrumentation? Lennon: Les really was adamant that he wanted it to be minimal. He was thinking about how we were going to play it live, which I never think about in the studio. I’m always following a fantasy musically that may not be recreate-able with a few people onstage. It’s always a puzzle for me to figure out how to represent what I’ve done in the studio. I tend to use the studio as a wizard’s chemistry lab where anything can happen. I worry later about how it would work live. But Les is really smart in that he is like, “No, it’s all about the tour. Let’s limit it.” It was a new thing for me to not do 10 guitar tracks and 10 keyboard tracks. The parameters were fixed in a way that was helpful actually.
Claypool: I wouldn’t consider it an arrangement thing. It’s more of a production thing. I didn’t feel it necessary to layer in a bunch of guitars or a bunch of different instrumentation or what have you. It was a matter of where we found a balance and a compromise to get what we ended up getting, which is the Phobos record.
You cover “Tomorrow Never Knows.” The studio was a big part of that song. How are you approaching that live? Lennon: It’s funny, because I never really do Beatles’ songs, obviously, because it’s too embarrassing or something [laughs]. But Les was like, “This is a supergroup. We’re going to do covers of your songs and my songs. We’re going to blend our two worlds and we want to put on a good show. I think it’s time that you do a Beatles’ song in your set, just to embrace it as opposed to trying to avoid it.” And I thought, “You know, I wouldn’t do this for anybody but you, man.” That’s what I said. I was like, “If you really want to do it, I trust you.” Because you know, there is something like, “What the fuck does Sean think he’s doing? Why is he doing a Beatles song?”
Les Claypool’s Gear
Basses
• Custom Pachyderm 4-string
• NS Design electric upright 5-string
• Michael Kelly Bayou 4-string Resonator Bass
• Vintage Eko Model 995 Violin Bass
Amps
• API 7600 the Channel Strip (multiple)
• Mesa/Boogie Subway D-800 heads (two)
• Subway 1x12 Ultra-Lite Bass Cabinets (four)
Effects
• Line 6 DM4 Distortion Modeler
• Line 6 DL4 Delay Modeler
• Boomerang III Phrase Sampler
• dbx 160A Compressor
• Korg AX3000B ToneWorks Bass Effects Processor
• MXR M108 Ten Band Graphic EQ
• MXR M80 Bass D.I.
• Access Virus TI Synthesizer with MIDI foot controller
Strings
• Dunlop sets
Sean Lennon’s Gear
Guitar
• BilT Relevator
Amp
• Fender Hot Rod DeVille
Effects
• Seymour Duncan 805 Overdrive
• Electro-Harmonix MEL9 Tape Replay Machine
• Rockett Archer overdrive
• Catalinbread Merkin fuzz
• Dunlop Zakk Wylde Cry Baby Wah
• Electro-Harmonix Micro POG
• DOD Phasor 201
• Catalinbread Valcoder tremolo
• Electro-Harmonix Memory Boy analog delay
• Catalinbread Belle Epoch tape echo
• Death by Audio Reverberation Machine
• Electro-Harmonix Holy Grail reverb
Strings and Picks
• D’Addario and Ernie Ball .010–.046 and .011–.049 sets
• Dunlop Ultex 1 mm
The reactions I’ve seen so far have been super positive. Lennon: Yeah. I was surprised, because I thought a lot of people would be like, “Fuck him.” But you know, I love the music and we went through a couple options, like which one might work. “Tomorrow Never Knows” was the one that I was comfortable with. I mean, sure, it is hard to recreate—we’re not trying to recreate it exactly. But it’s certainly easier than playing “A Day in the Life” or something, because it’s just one chord, pretty much.
Claypool: I’ve come to a few realizations from becoming good friends with Sean. Like most of the planet, I used to sit back and go, “Oh the children of famous people or legendary people must have it made. All the doors open for them when they do this thing or the next thing.” And really it is almost the opposite. I’ve learned that he has so much scrutiny—he is under such a magnifying glass—whenever he does anything musical. I know my own son, he was a bass player and he switched from bass to banjo because he got tired of people saying, “Oh you’re Les Claypool’s son, hmmm …” And that’s on a very small scale compared to what Sean has to deal with. I sympathize with him on many of these things. But I also know from playing with him that he has a very strong voice of his own and a very strong signature. I think some of that is because he has elements of his father—and he also has elements of his abstract mother that shine through—but, also, he’s Sean. He’s an interesting fellow with an interesting perspective. He’s very intelligent. He’s extremely humble. I think more than anything I’m hoping that the planet gets to see that he does have his own voice beyond the expectations of his DNA.
What basses did you use on the album? Claypool: I used my dobro bass quite a bit. I have an old Eko bass that I used quite a bit, too, and then my Pachyderm bass. It’s all 4-string stuff except for the upright—a lot more pizzicato stuff, less thumping, but there is also some thumping and strumming on there.
Were you going direct or using an amp? Claypool: I take a signal from an amp. I don’t mike it, but it’s a direct signal from an amp. I haven’t miked a cabinet in many years.
Was any of it tracked live? Claypool: Quite a bit. Sometimes Sean’s on the drums and I’m on the bass—sometimes it’s bass and guitar.
What guitars did you use? Lennon: I’ve been playing BilT guitars. One of them is called the Relevator. It has these knobs that are a built-in delay, a built-in fuzz, a mute knob, and a delay solo knob. On the song “Oxycontin Girl,” you can hear me using that guitar for the first time. You can play a note and then use the knob where you can change the delay time—because it is built in—and it changes the pitch for a second. It’s been hard to get used to. Using those knobs and buttons in the studio is one thing, but then when you’re onstage it can get confusing. I’m getting better at that now. I really think the BilT guys make amazing guitars. I don’t really like most new guitars, but their guitars feel really good. I feel very comfortable playing them and the tone is great.
I brought my pedalboard and two guitars. I brought one amp, which I didn’t use very much. I used Les’ little Mesa/Boogie—whatever was there—it was his Mesa/Boogie Mark II, those little ones that have the switch and the two channels.
Do you get your distortion from the amp or from pedals? Lennon: It depends. I feel I have amp distortion just as my basic setting. I like the sound where it’s up to my dynamics as to how distorted it sounds. Hopefully, it is clean enough that if I play light, I can do a ballad-y moment, but if I dig in it will give you a little bit of that drive. That’s the ideal state for me. But I do like the boost, too. The amp is driven anyway, so when I turn on the fuzz pedal it is driving the amp from the pedalboard really hard, which I like.
What amp are you touring with? Lennon: I’m touring with a Fender [Hot Rod] DeVille. I know it’s not supposed to be the greatest amp, but that’s what I’ve been touring with since I was in my 20s. I always try to move to something more whatever—bigger or better—but I don’t feel comfortable.
That’s not what I use in my studio, though. I have a ton of amps in the studio: these weird old things—just collectable weird—Hawaiian amps from the ’50s and a really good Fender Deluxe with the distortion I use for most solos. But on tour, in terms of an amp I can rent, that I can replace right away, that’s always going to be in every city in the world if I need it—the DeVille is the one I’m most comfortable with. I can get the sound that I like from it. I don’t know, I’m not an amp expert, maybe, but a lot of guitarists are like, “That’s not a great amp.” But I like it.
There’s no shame in using a DeVille. Lennon: There is huge shame. I hang my head… No, I’m kidding [laughs]. I just mean in terms of a guitar magazine worthy comment, I know it’s not that interesting.
Will there be any more exciting or interesting covers to look forward to as the tour rolls on? Claypool: Oh yeah. We are pulling out covers every now and again. You just have to wait and see what happens.
YouTube It
Check out the Claypool Lennon Delirium’s entire June 11, 2016, set from Manchester, Tennessee’s Bonnaroo festival.
Sean Lennon finds momentum in his psych-rock project with partner Charlotte Kemp Muhl.
Sean Lennon shows off his trusty Jazzmaster (and a sweet hat) at a July 2014 show at the DeVos Performance Hall in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He says he prefers the tone of a Jazzmaster to any other guitar: “Their pickups are very special and have a full, beautiful, rich tone that is the best I’ve ever heard.” Photo by Chris Schwegler / Atlas Icons
One look around Sean Lennon’s home studio explains why Midnight Sun, the new record by the Ghost Of A Saber Tooth Tiger (aka “the GOASTT”), is a veritable lesson in sonics. Modern preamps sit next to classic UREI 1176 compressors. New Moog synths occupy the same space as old Norlin-era Moog rack effects. A digital Memotron sits in the shadow of an actual Mellotron M400. A bag of new Electro-Harmonix products sits only feet from his dad’s old Electro-Harmonix Mini Synthesizer. The floor is littered with classic effects, new boutique noisemakers built to replicate them, and assorted cheap stompboxes.
Nowhere in the room are you more than a few inches from a guitar, be it a classic Fender Jaguar or an aluminum-neck Wandre from the ’60s. It’s more of a mad scientist’s lab than museum though—everything is being used regularly to make music, except maybe the stuffed toy monkey hanging from the chandelier.
Even though Sean is the son of Yoko Ono and John Lennon, it wasn’t a foregone conclusion that he’d enter the family business. He appeared on his mother’s album, Season of Glass, at age five and co-wrote a song with Lenny Kravitz at 16. But the commitment to a life in rock only came at age 21, when he joined the art-pop band Cibo Matto on bass. A year later he released his debut, Into the Sun, on the Beastie Boys’ Grand Royal label. Many collaborations and a second solo record followed, culminating in the formation of the GOASTT with his longtime girlfriend, multi-instrumentalist Charlotte Kemp Muhl. What seemingly started as a Francophilic acoustic pop duo has become a full-blown psychedelic juggernaut, delivering headphone candy production and top-notch riffs. On the eve of a Japanese mini-tour, Lennon sat down with Premier Guitar to explain how it all came together, and why it’s finally okay for him to have a good guitar.
I’ve seen you play other guitars, but you seem to favor Fenders these days.
I’ve played guitar most of my life, but for the longest time I had this sort of guilt [about owning expensive guitars] and felt I didn’t need a great one. I was really interested in Silvertones, Danelectros, and weird, cheap Italian guitars. I don’t own a good Strat. I don’t have a fancy Les Paul. I bought my first Jazzmaster, because the Strats, Teles, and Gibsons were just ridiculously expensive. I missed the market on those guitars. At first I was collecting different Guilds, like the S100, which is great. I got into those because friends of mine were buying them. [Soundgarden’s] Kim Thayil played one.
Then finally I found the Jazzmaster. I played it and thought, “Wow, this is just incredible.” I can get so many different sounds out of it, and it’s so lush. It feels like I’m driving a Rolls Royce rather than a Pontiac or something. Jazzmasters were fairly cheap at that time, but they aren’t anymore. I remember thinking, “Wow, I can get a Fender guitar from the ’60s for that price? Are you sure?” It felt like I was getting away with something. Jaguars had already gone up in price because of Kurt Cobain, so I bought some Jazzmasters and that was it—I never looked back. In the studio, obviously, I like to switch between guitars for different sounds, whether it’s a 12-string Rickenbacker, or whatever. But live, I feel most comfortable with the Jazzmaster—the only fancy guitar that didn’t make me feel guilty.
The guitarists of Television and Sonic Youth tell a similar story about how Fender offsets were even cheaper in the late ’70s. They were $75 to $150. I guess you probably came in when they were still under $500.
I was lucky enough to get my first one for so little money. It was a ’64 that was really beat up. That was my introduction, and I stuck with it. Now I have a slightly better one that Nels [Cline] recommended I get. It’s a ’61. You’re right, though, Thurston [Moore] was always playing Jazzmasters. Lee Ranaldo has this purple Jazzmaster that I’ve always wanted to buy from him. I’ve never seen him play it onstage, but it’s always in the rack! We used to tour together, and I’d be like, “Dude, are you sure you don’t want to sell that?” Now that I know Nels, who is a Jazzmaster aficionado, I took his advice, and made my guitars even better, with things like the Mastery Bridge and tremolo system that Woody [John Woodland] is making in Minneapolis. That’s changed everything.
Now that I’m older, I feel I’m accepting myself as a professional guitar player, and it’s okay to have cool pedals and guitars. When I was younger, I was more interested in recording, songwriting, playing drums and bass. A cheapo just seemed right, because I didn’t think guitar was my thing. I mean, the people around me when I was growing up were so good at guitar. Everyone was shredding and tapping, and I was just like, “Eh, I’m just over here writing songs!”
The Ghost of a Saber Tooth Tiger is at its best when performing live, says Sean Lennon: “Once you’ve published a song and sung it 100 times, you feel like you finally start to understand it.” Photo by Pablo Anwar
Do you have any go-to guitars for recording?
I have quite a few guitars, but usually play the Jazzmaster out of laziness [laughs]. It’s a workhorse and, along with my pedalboard, I can get quite a lot done. I do have other guitars, other amps, and other pedals that aren’t on my board that I use, though. If I’m motivated, I’ll try anything. On the new GOASTT record, I had open-tuned acoustic guitars strapped to amps so they would resonate to certain notes, and then those would go through some pedals to another amp.
I do all sorts of wacky shit in the studio, but ultimately the main guitar will be the Jazzmaster through any decent Fender amp that has gain and a spring reverb, and then my pedalboard. I’m not the guy who shows up with 18 guitars, though I know people like that. I think it’s ultimately because I end up playing drums, bass, and other instruments too, so I’m not just thinking about guitar entirely. Today I have to go record seven songs. I’m playing guitar, bass, and drums on every one, so I’ll need to move fast, and trying out different guitars won’t be possible.
What guitars do you write on? Do you prefer acoustic or electric?
I write on the most recent guitar that I’ve been playing. Around the house, I tend to write on acoustics, but in the studio I write a lot on electric. I like old Martin acoustics for the most part. I have a Martin, the mahogany ... 00-18? It’s a late ’40s one, and really nice. It’s simple, with no trim or anything, and I got it when I was really young, maybe 10 or 11. I bought it because of this hippie woman at my summer camp who taught me fingerpicking. That’s how I learned “The Claw.” She always had that guitar [model], so of course I thought it was cool. They record great.
You know, it took me years to realize that recording acoustic guitars is not always about having the biggest, lushest sound. Maybe if you only have acoustic guitar on the track, then it’s cool to get a big Johnny Cash sound or something, but I finally realized that a small sound might be better if there are other instruments on a song. You’ve got to fit everything on the shelf, so every book can’t be the size of the whole shelf! Another guitar I have that’s quite cool is a Martin Terz. It’s from the ’20s. It’s also called a “5.” It’s really small. Not a parlor guitar—it’s like beyond parlor. It’s my favorite guitar to write on now. I don’t take my old one on tour, but they make new ones. I’ve been collecting acoustics for much longer than I’ve been collecting electrics. Those I felt like I should have, because it seemed like a “songwriter’s instrument.”
Sean Lennon's Gear
Guitars
1961 Fender Jazzmaster (with bridge and vibrato by Mastery Bridge)
1963 Fender Jazzmaster (with bridge and vibrato by Mastery Bridge)
Late-’40s Martin 00-18
Martin Terz
Amps
Fender Hot Rod DeVille
1950s Fender Deluxe
Vintage Fender Bassman (belonged to John Lennon)
Effects
Danelectro Back Talk
DOD Phasor 201
Pro Co Rat Distortion
Sarno Music Solutions Earth Drive
Electro-Harmonix POG
Electro-Harmonix Memory Man
Electro-Harmonix Holy Grail
Ibanez AD-80
Ibanez FL-301
Fulltone Supa-Trem
Dunlop Zakk Wylde Cry Baby Wah
EarthQuaker Devices Arpanoid
Strings and Picks
D’Addario and Ernie Ball .010s and .011s string sets
Dunlop Ultex 1 mm picks
Was that the one you played on the Friendly Fire tour?
That was the 00-18, not the Terz. You know, the Terz is supposed to be tuned up to G. I tune it down [to standard], so I put on heavier strings. Now I have to get it fixed, because the heavier strings are pulling off the bridge.
Outside of GOASTT, what partnerships have influenced you musically?
Well, I’m one of those people who like to collaborate. I have roommates, and I’m always living and working with other musicians. I’ve learned a lot from everyone I’ve ever been close to as a musician. The Beastie Boys, especially Adam Yauch, really opened up to me when I was young. He signed me for my first deal. Hanging out with the Beasties made me more of a multi-instrumentalist. They would all just switch off between drums and bass and make loops of their jams to make songs out of later. It was incredible to see them do that. That was how I met Money Mark, their keyboard player, who is also a tech nerd. I think his dad was an engineer. Mark influenced me so much. He taught me about things like hitting the tines on the Rhodes, or pulling the case off a Wurlitzer and hammering the reeds, which makes the most amazing sound. He used to rig a quarter-inch cable to be a button, and use that as a track mute, and he’d go back through certain tracks and manually mute a drone track with some rhythm. He plays trumpets with balloons. You know that Maestro guitar thing [Rhythm N’ Sound]? He uses one with a trombone. He sings through it while he’s playing drums. He was one of the first people to open up my eyes to that kind of experimentation. Every time I’ve done sessions with him, I’ve learned something new about recording. The first U47 that I ever used was Money Mark’s.
Then I met Yuka Honda [Cibo Matto], who became my music mentor. She taught me how to read chord charts and what a flat 13 was. She’d been married to Dougie Bowne, and was friends with John Zorn and everyone in the New York avant-jazz scene—or punk jazz, noise jazz, whatever you call it. I got to meet all these super high-level musicians and hang out with them. One of the first sessions I did was playing bass with Marc Ribot on guitar and Dougie Bowne on drums. Meeting Marc Ribot was a huge eye-opener. He invited me to play bass on a record he was producing for a Japanese artist. Seeing Marc, with all of his weirdo guitars and his unique playing style, was definitely inspirational. Then Yuka met [her current husband] Nels Cline. The first time I saw him, it was a revelation. I couldn’t figure out what he was doing. I saw him play [Funkadelic’s] “Maggot Brain”with Mike Watt at SummerStage, and I just remember feeling like, “Aww man, this almost makes up for not seeing some of the guitarists I wish I’d have been able to see in the ’60s,” because he’s so good. I don’t think I’m the only one who feels that way, either. I felt like I was experiencing something visceral that I’d felt through albums, but never seen live in that particular way. Then we became roommates. He’s definitely opened my eyes to guitar a lot. He’s friends with Julian Lage. When I saw them play their first duet, I felt like aliens had come from the future to give me a glimpse of the potential of the human brain, and what things are going to be like. I had never felt that way before at a performance before. Not to criticize the Knitting Factory scene, but I remember people playing saxophone mouthpieces into bowls of water and all this crazy shit. Yeah, it was cool, but when I heard Julian and Nels play, I really felt like this was the next level of guitar playing and harmony.
They re-thought the instrument entirely?
I’m not even sure they re-thought it. I mean, they thought about it—or maybe it just happened. When you see Yngwie Malmsteen, or Steve Vai on a three-necked guitar or something, you feel a kind of self-consciousness. I don’t want to put down Steve Vai or Yngwie in a guitar magazine, because they’re obviously talented—Vai played with Zappa!— but the reason they didn’t make me want to go out and finger tap was that it felt like there was a sort of artifice going on. When Julian plays, it seems like it just feels good, even though harmonically 90 percent of people on the planet might think it’s dissonant. In order to push limits, you’ve got to push harmony. I got Julian to do a session for my mom on the last record. Just being next to him when I played improved my skills. Sometimes that’s all it takes with people who are that talented: physically being in the same room. I hadn’t grown up with any real guitar mentors. Unfortunately, I’m mostly self-taught. When I was younger, I had a few lessons from a session guy named Bob Mayo, who taught me the basics. I wish I had more guitar mentoring when I was younger. I think I’d be a better player now. But those encounters changed everything.
Lennon brings a backup Jazzmaster on the road, a 1961 tobacco burst that Nels Cline helped pick out. “It is technically a ‘better’ guitar,” says Lennon. “They say ’61 is one of the best years for the Jazzmaster. But as awesome as it is, there is something magical about the ’63 goldtop that I can't get enough of!” Photo by Chris Schwegler / Atlas Icons
You’re a great, versatile player!
Thanks. I feel like I already play too many solos though, so I don’t need to have anything encouraging me to do more of that.
Obviously bands change and morph into new things. GOASTT started out as chamber pop, but became decidedly psychedelic. Was Le Carrotte Bleu the turning point?
Actually, Carrotte Bleu was kind of a mistake. We didn’t think people would hear it. We were going on tour in France, playing with Matthieu Chedid. He’s known as “M.” He’s like ... beyond. He’s the most famous rock star in France and a guitar hero. We got on his stadium tour, but we had no merch. We thought “Let’s just put together an LP for France,” and we called it La Carotte Bleue, figuring it would just be merch for the French tour. Then suddenly everybody’s like, “Oh, this is your second album!” It was literally discarded, half-baked demos that we thought would end up in the hands of maybe 100 French people. We hadn’t realized that the Internet Age would essentially make it a global release. It wound up representing us in some way, though it really wasn’t meant to. It certainly wasn’t our intention. There’s some stuff on there I like, but it was really a throwaway.
It wasn’t so much of a shift, though, because we’d already been recording tons of psychedelic music when we were touring the acoustic pop stuff. It’s not like we evolved into that—it’s that we sort of weren’t allowed to do it at first. Our manager was like, “You can’t start out as a rock band. There are so many rock bands. This acoustic stuff you have is so unique. Put that out, and we’ll follow it up the same year with your rock band.” We figured okay, and we put out the acoustic thing. Then it was like, “Well, now Conan wants you to play. You have this tour.” We never wanted to be an acoustic band, though. Not because I don’t like playing acoustically—it’s just really hard to rock out live on acoustic guitar, you know what I mean? So we didn’t transform into a psychedelic band. We just got way better at being one.
What guitars have you brought on tour?
Our tour is a van tour. We’re loading in and out every night, so I’ve got a Jazzmaster and a backup Jazzmaster. That’s it. Just in case something explodes onstage. Obviously I would be psyched to take a rack of guitars, but our percussionist is also our only tech, so he’s got a big job. There can’t be extra guitars at this point.
What did you put together for a pedalboard?
It’s different in the studio, where I have lots to pick from, but live I don’t use fancy or vintage stuff, because I can’t have things break. I’m stomping on them every day. There’s mud being slung in the air. If I have the most recent models of everything, they’re easily replaceable, so everything I use live is pretty much new. I go from a Boss tuner pedal to one of those Danelectro [Back Talk] reverse delays to some kind of phase pedal. I’m still not settled on which one I like, but I’ve been using the DOD [Phasor 201], which works great. I use a couple of distortions before the wah. If you put a wah before the distortion, that’s cool too, but it’s more subtle. I use the reliable Rat, and usually some boutique thing. I really like the [Sarno Music Solutions] Earth Drive, which sounds like an amp—more like an overdrive than a fuzz. Oh, and I like distortion before some kind of harmonizer, like the POG or the HOG, or even just a ring-mod or octave pedal.
I use it to expand the harmonic range of the distortion. Then I put the wah, and then two delay pedals, one set to slap and another set to a long delay. That way I don’t have to bend over too much. I use the long delay for really crazy sweeps and stuff, and I leave the slap on for a percussive thing.
Which delays do you prefer?
I’ve been using the new, smaller Memory Mans, because they take up less space. But my favorite delay of all time is the pink Ibanez [AD-80] delay. I have, like, 10 of those. Every time I find one, I get it, because they always break. It’s the darkest delay. Not the other Ibanez that came out later, which looks almost the same, only it’s pale pink, and it takes one 9V battery. It has to be the 18V one. It’s the same series as the yellow flanger [FL-301], which I also use on drums all the time. I won’t bring that Ibanez delay or flanger on tour, because I want to preserve them. From there, I go into the [Fulltone] Supa-Trem. I like that to be at the end because it can cut everything off—make it choppy. Then, finally, a Holy Grail [by Electro-Harmonix] at the end, which is still my favorite reverb. I haven’t done a mix without using a Holy Grail in like 10 years, since the first one came out.
What wah do you tend to favor?
The [Dunlop] Zakk Wylde. I sometimes throw other things on the board too, like the [EarthQuaker Devices] Arpanoid pedal, although that fucked everything up because I’d always switch it on by accident [laughs].
If it’s not a backline situation, and you get to pick the amp you’re using, what do you like?
I tour with a couple of Fender DeVilles. That’s my live amp, but I wind up using those in the studio quite a bit. It’s a workhorse, and I know exactly what it’s going to sound like every time. Having said that, if I’m going to be in the studio and I have the energy to really focus on guitar, I have an old, crusty Fender Deluxe from the ’50s that still has the original speaker cone. It only has volume and tone controls. If I put it up at 12 o’clock, it’s the most distorted thing that you’ve ever heard. That’s my favorite distortion, if I’m not going to rely on pedals. I have a Fernandes with a built-in speaker that I like to use for solos. On my first record [Into The Sun], a lot of my solos were done with it. I like using [Smokey] cigarette amps, or modding things that shouldn’t be amps. I definitely like experimentation. I’ve got a Champ. I like old amps, but I don’t require them.
You just like sounds?
If they’re old and fucked up, I’ll definitely try them. It’s interesting: The only amp I have from the old days was my dad’s Bassman. Those weren’t used so much on bass, but I actually do use it on bass. Sometimes you don’t want such a big bass sound. It has those 10-inch speakers, which are really good for a punchy bass sound. It was made for bass, right? I was always using the [Ampeg] B-15, which is great, but it’s soft and doesn’t punch like that. It doesn’t get edgy. I often use [the Bassman] for guitar, and I run all my synths through it, too. If I have a [recorded track] that doesn’t sound nice, I tend to re-amp it, loud, like twice, just to get some of the room in there. In fact, anything that’s in-the-box, like a soft-synth, I always run through the Bassman into the room. I kind of have this superstition about sounds never being sent through the air. I want sounds to have been in the world, and I want you to hear things that have been in the world.
So when you’re taking your songs and playing them live, do you feel like it’s necessary to replicate the record?
No, the opposite. I always feel ripped off when I see the band and it sounds exactly like the record. In fact, not to sound like a brat, but I remember seeing Michael Jackson playing a lot of songs on the Victory tour, and loving them, but I thought it was so slick. I felt like the live version should be more raw, and I remember being critical of that, even when I was young, and even though he was the greatest. I love him, but I could have just listened to the record! Live sound isn’t—and shouldn’t be—perfect. Besides, the environment is not conducive. There are people talking, drinks spilling. People spend six hours soundchecking to get a guitar tone. I just feel like there’s no fucking point. Live is not a pristine environment. Maybe the PA sucks. Even if it’s good, it sucks [laughs]. You’re not in the studio, and you can’t control things as if you were. You should just enjoy yourself, and the audience will be happy. So we don’t focus on those things. I think we’re better live, personally, and I much prefer our songs live, just as I do with other bands. Once you’ve published a song and sung it 100 times, you feel like you finally start to understand it. Our band is made up of really good musicians, and I love to hear them play. We have to distill everything, though. We have to represent many keyboard tracks with just one guy, and I have to represent many guitar tracks with just two guitarists.
You obviously give GOASTT guitarist Robbie Mangano a lot of free rein to interpret the songs however he wants.
It’s been hard for me as a guitar player to do that in the past, but with this guy it’s like, “Hey, whatever you want to do.” Obviously, I have input. [Charlotte and I] have parts we’ve developed, but he’s just one of those guitar players—and it’s true of Jared [Samuel] too, as a keyboardist. Their instincts are fucking great.
You’ve worked with a lot of great guitar players. How do you find them?
Friends of friends. Cameron [Greider, guitarist on Friendly Fire] was friends with Brad Albetta, who was playing with Martha Wainwright, and we were all friends. I met Robbie through Jared. I saw Robbie and was like, “That’s the dude!” He had to be the guitar player. We didn’t get together immediately, but I remember seeing him at that moment and thinking that if I was going to play with one guy, that would be it. We just lucked out. It’s probably because our music is getting cooler, so it probably attracts cooler people or something [laughs]. You put the energy out there and meet people appropriate for a project. Cameron really fit well with Friendly Fire. The guitar playing I was doing then was more about counterpoint and parts. Now it’s more about textures. Robbie and I tend to play in unison a lot, whereas I used to be more interested in complexity, which doesn’t always come across live.
When you play with others artists, whether it’s your mom or anybody else, do you like assuming the role of the sideman?
I really love it. When I DJ, for instance, and it’s a really fun night and people are excited about the songs I pick, I feel like, “Man, why do I even play music? This music is so much better! Why do I spend time writing songs? It’s so much harder!” I feel the same way being a sideman. There’s no pressure. Well, there is pressure, but it’s just to play your part well. The burden’s not on you to make sure that it’s a nice night. I actually love that, because it’s all the good parts of playing shows and touring without having the responsibility that if the show sucks, it’s your fault. That’s not really true with your own music. The burden’s mostly on the lead singer to make it fun. I’m not saying I don’t enjoy doing that too, but it’s a lot more pressure.
You mentioned you were recording today...
I’m working on a film score with my friend Jordan Galland, for whom I’ve done two scores already. I have a lot to do today because GOASTT is headed to Japan this weekend, and we only have three days to add half an hour to our set, because the Japanese booker wanted a longer show. I basically have to finish this film score today, and there are something like 25 cues. It’s a lot!
YouTube It
Sean Lennon and the GOASST came armed with interpretive animal dancers for this primetime performance of “Animals” from Midnight Sun.
Saber-Tooth Sideman
Sean Lennon’s sideman guitarist, Robbie “Sea Hag” Mangano, isn’t even 40 yet, but he’s appeared on more than 40 albums, composed music for CBS Sports, served as a music tech advisor on a film by Soprano’s creator David Chase (Not Fade Away), and toured with legends. We picked his brain on all things guitar.
When did you pick up guitar?
Actually I started by “playing bass” on a classical guitar when I was 9. I got a real, Westone bass and was a bass player though my teens. I switched to guitar later, and after playing around for fun in some bands in New Jersey, I moved to New York City to go to NYU. While I was there I formed my first “real” band, called Wrong, around ’97. It was funny: Half of that band was “real musicians,” and the other half wasn’t as serious about it, but we had the best time. I got a job transcribing for Guitar World magazine around that time, too. After college I started playing on and off with alumni of Frank Zappa’s band, like Napoleon Murphy Brock, Don Preston, Ike Willis, and Ed Mann in the groups Project/Object, and the Grandmothers of Invention. I’ve toured with Tom Morello and Boots Riley, playing bass and guitar. But the longest running thing has been playing with my friend Pauly Sosnowski in Old Rugged Sauce. Dave Dreiwitz, who was in Ween, plays in that band, and Jared Samuel from the GOASTT sits in when he can.
I play in Jared’s band Invisible Familiars. I’m playing with them tonight, in fact. [Drummer] Tim Kuhl, from GOASTT, also plays with him. Jared was playing with Sean already, so when he was looking for a guitarist, he suggested me.
Who are your influences?
When I was younger I was really into Randy Rhoads. Hendrix, of course. I love Robbie Krieger and Neil Young. But my number one influence is Paul Leary of the Butthole Surfers—he changed everything for me.
What are your main guitars?
I have a ’94 “Foto Flame” Fender Strat loaded with [Seymour Duncan] Hot Rails, and a 1999 ’59 Reissue Gibson ES-335. I string them with Dean Markleys, mixing light tops and heavier bottoms [.09, .011, .017, .026, .036, .046 on the Strat; and .010, .013, .017, .036, .044, .052 on the 335]. Fender recently gave me an Olympic White 60th Anniversary American Standard Strat.
With so many sounds on the GOASTT record to reproduce live, I imagine you need a well-stocked pedalboard. What do you have on it?
A Vox wah, Keeley Compressor, Fulltone Supa-Trem, [Electro-Harmonix] Small Stone phaser, GuitarSystems’ Fuzz Tool Jr. [silicon and germanium Fuzz Face clone], an MI Audio Crunchbox for distortion, the Keeley Seafoam Chorus, a Boss DD-7 Digital Delay, a ZVEX Channel 2, a WrightSounds Fuzz-Stang, and one of the small-box Holy Grails for reverb. At the end of the chain is a Boss OC-2 Octave Pedal.
You use the octave pedal at the very end of the chain? Isn’t tracking an issue? Doesn’t it get glitchy?
Sure, but I consider it a feature [laughs]. I use it in a non-traditional way, for emphasizing low notes and getting an “exploding amp” sound. The more messed up, the better, really. Live, I use it in “Animals” and “Midnight Sun,” and we’ve added intros to songs, so it works for those. It can give me a crazy, synthy sound. In the middle of the last tour, Sean and I started doing more double guitar stuff, and it’s just great for that. I change out pedals on my board often though, so it can change at any moment.
And, like Sean, you’re using a Fender Hot Rod DeVille?
Yeah, we both use those live. Outside of the band I use an old Music Man RD 112.
That’s a total sleeper amp, but they aren’t the bargain they used to be.
I love it. The bass boost on it is great, and it just gets really deep with the octave pedal setup.
Last question: Every sideman needs a nickname, but how did you get “Sea Hag?”
I watched tons of Popeye as a toddler, and the Sea Hag character gave me nightmares. I remembered these dreams, years later, when I was 22. They seemed funny to me at that age, and I remembered that my grandfather looked like Popeye and the old Italian ladies in my neighborhood, dressed in back, looked like Sea Hag. In 1997, everyone in NYC wanted to be a DJ. I wasn’t one, but I started introducing myself at parties as DJ Sea Hag, and eventually people started introducing me as that onstage. Sometimes, people actually think it’s my real last name. Like, “What kind of last name is Seahag? British?”