Diaries of the Mad Axemen: relive the Woodshed Chronicles of the guitars designed for and played by Randy Rhoads.
As Randy dazzled the guitar community with his playing, many guitarists remained curious about the tools of his trade. Randy's main guitar was a Gibson Les Paul Custom, which was flanked by two unique V-shaped guitars. While much has been written about these guitars, most observations have simply scratched the surface. With the help of luthiers Karl Sandoval and Grover Jackson, we revisit these very special guitars of Randy Rhoads.
Randy Rhoads began his performing career playing a cream-colored Gibson Les Paul Custom. His Quiet Riot bandmates had acquired it collectively for Randy's sole use in the late seventies. Initially, Randy thought it was made in 1963, but would later discover it was actually made in 1972. This revelation came from John "JT" Thomas, an avid Gibson collector and guitarist for the British band Budgie, who opened during Rhoads' first European tour with Ozzy. The Les Paul was Randy's main guitar throughout his career and he used it for a majority of his recordings and performances with Osbourne.
The Les Paul Custom, per 1972 spec, had a four-piece body: two layers of mahogany with a thin layer of maple in the middle and a carved maple top. It was white when new, but the nitrocellulose lacquer yellowed over time. It was also heavier than fifties era Les Paul Customs. Randy made only a few cosmetic alterations to the guitar, replacing the brass toggle switchplate and substituting the Grover tuning machines with Schallers. The most noticeable marking on this guitar was Randy's name engraved on the pickguard. Pickups during this era of construction were Gibson-produced "T-Buckers," named for the T-shaped tool marking made in the forward bobbin of the pickup.
An Idea for a New Guitar
Before joining up with Ozzy Osbourne for Blizzard of Ozz, Randy was still slugging it out on the L.A. scene, playing shows with Quiet Riot. In 1979, Randy found himself gigging with another local guitarist he admired from the band Xciter, George Lynch, who would later come to fame in Dokken. In those days, the two often conversed about technique, amps and, of course, guitars. One particular evening, Lynch showed up with a new single-pickup V-shaped guitar. Randy was excited to see it and asked to check it out. The guitar had a flat radius fretboard and a tremolo bar on the body, something uncommon on V-shaped guitars at the time. To Randy, it was like two worlds colliding—a Gibson-inspired shape with a Fender-made mechanism. Lynch had had the guitar custom-made by a local luthier named Karl Sandoval. As Randy was fascinated by the design of this guitar, George urged him to give Karl a call.
Karl Sandoval began his career as a luthier while playing guitar in the band Smokehouse. He was on the same scene that included many of Randy Rhoads's contemporaries, like Eddie Van Halen and George Lynch. He built relationships with other guitar players on the basis of his guitar playing and the amazing guitars he made for himself. He had been working with Wayne Charvel at the Charvel guitar shop when he received a call from the Quiet Riot guitarist. He recalls that first conversation with Rhoads, saying, "I remember Randy giving me a call, telling me that he was backstage with George doing a show and got to play the guitar I made for George."
On his first visit with Sandoval, Randy discussed ideas for his own version of what he had seen on George Lynch's V. That was July 3, 1979.
"I can remember that day," Sandoval says, "walking around in my garage discussing this guitar ... talking about the headstock, the color, the bowtie inlay on the neck. He wanted the Les Paul's double humbuckers and the Fender Strat tremolo. He also asked about putting the toggle switch and the output jack on the upper wing." Randy also mentioned that he did not want a bolt-on neck because he wanted the guitar to have the playability of a Gibson.
Sandoval with Rhoads'' in-progress first V.
As Sandoval tells the story, "I talked with Randy about coming up with something different in a guitar, a different look, saying, 'Let's come up with a different headstock, a different color, come up with an identity.' And then he started to tell me, 'V body with polka dots' ...honestly, I thought that was hideous but then I just kinda used my imagination." Randy wanted 3/4" dots painted all over the guitar, and to give it perspective, he didn't want them randomly placed on the guitar.
"I took his ideas and I put them all together," Sandoval continues. "I was real good at putting guitars together in my head. I could visualize the guitar in my head before it's even started. He didn't want a bolt-on, so the neck is set into the body."
Building a New V
The first step in building this guitar was finding a Danelectro neck. Sandoval had become accustomed to using these necks, and they were a central feature of his guitars, but he still had to hunt one down: "I would go to swap meets and pawn shops a lot. Back in the day, I was picking up Silvertones and Danelectros for like 15 to 25 bucks. I couldn't even get necks from wholesalers for that price! Basically I took them off the guitars and I ended up with a lot of guitar bodies and no necks."
Contrary to popular belief, these necks did have truss rods. As Sandoval describes them, "It's two I-beam, non-adjustable truss rods glued into the neck before the fretboard is glued on. If you look at the end of these necks, you'll see two slots. That's where these on-edge I-beam truss rods are. It's like an inch-thick steel that will not bend. And it makes a maple neck very heavy. I think that's what contributed to the sound of Randy's guitar. There's a lot of metal there."
Because Randy wanted a Gibson sound, the two-piece body was constructed out of mahogany. But unlike a traditional Gibson-made Flying V, this body had to be much thicker to accommodate the depth needed for the Fender tremolo bridge sustain block.
"I had to tell him that it's going to be thick because 1 3/4" is the size of the block on the bridge," says Sandoval. "A Strat body is anywhere from 1 5/8" to 1 3/4". An original Gibson Flying V isn't that thick." Control cavities would be placed on the upper wing for the pickup selector switch and on the outside edge of the upper wing for the output jack. Having cut the body out, the next procedure was attaching the Danelectro neck to it.
Sandoval hit upon a unique way to position the neck and glue it to the body that incorporated the surrounding support: "I came up with a very simple neck pocket glue-in system. I have an extension of the neck underneath the existing neck where the neck pocket is and you shape the body around the neck. There's actually more wood that extends out and supports the neck. It's a square neck going into a square neck pocket, but you've got a lot of surface area when you clamp it with wood glue. It will never break."
Routing for the pickups presented a minor problem because the string spacing of the Gibson-style bridge position pickup was narrower than the width of the Fender tremolo bridge. As Sandoval states, "It's a good thing that you have a flux circle magnetic field underneath the strings." The pickups used on this guitar were a DiMarzio Super Distortion in the bridge position, and a PAF in the neck position. The electronics were similar to Gibson specs: two volume and two tone controls located on the bottom wing of the guitar.
When Randy and Karl drew up the design of this guitar, they also came up with a headstock design that was shaped like a harpoon or an arrowhead. Using the existing Danelectro headstock, Sandoval attached wood to either side, creating a paddle that the new shape could be drawn onto.
"I left the existing headstock on and doweled the sides to graft on pieces of wood," explains Sandoval. "Then the correct shape was cut out."
Rhoads with his Sandoval V.
Photo by David Plastik
When Randy and Karl drew up the design of this guitar, they also came up with a headstock design that was shaped like a harpoon or an arrowhead. Using the existing Danelectro headstock, Sandoval attached wood to either side, creating a paddle that the new shape could be drawn onto."I left the existing headstock on and doweled the sides to graft on pieces of wood," explains Sandoval. "Then the correct shape was cut out."
The outcome of these elements was a Flying V shaped guitar made by Karl Sandoval but based on Randy Rhoads's ideas. The guitar had a scale length of 25 1/2", a 17" radius neck, and was finished in nitrocellulose lacquer. Although it is not widely known, Randy actually broke the headstock off the guitar only three weeks after it was built.
"He was devastated," Sandoval remarks. "I remember that call." As Randy described it, he was standing with the guitar when the strap came loose. The guitar fell and crashed to the floor, neck first. When Randy brought the guitar back to Sandoval, it wasn't as bad as it looked, but it was still a major wreck. "When the neck broke," he remembers, "it shattered down the middle. It blew out ... I saw multiple fibers of the wood sticking out on the neck part."
Sandoval continues: "He was more concerned about my work and what I had done, and he felt like he ruined my work. But I took it in and charged him another $75. I repaired it and it came out as good as new." The damage proved a testament to the strength of the neck pocket and of the neck itself, because the guitar did not break at the area where the neck joins the body. Guitars that take a similar fall will normally break somewhere in the middle or at the neck joint. Randy's guitar was repaired and little could be seen of the damage.
Randy Rhoads's Sandoval V guitar, a hybrid of a Gibson and a Fender, was completed in September 1979. Soon after that, Randy would leave his band Quiet Riot, having been tapped to play in Ozzy Osbourne's new band. Sandoval's creation headed overseas to England and a tour through Europe in 1980, and scores of Europress photographers snapped shots of it. In December of that year, Randy flew home to the states for Christmas. It was on that flight that he came up with an idea for a new guitar. He couldn't wait to get it built.
A Second V Takes Shape
Around the same time, Wayne Charvel sold the San Dimas, California workshop to a prospective new business partner, Grover Jackson. With Wayne gone, Karl Sandoval left to continue developing his company, Sandoval Engineering. This is what led Randy to call Grover Jackson about making his new guitar.
On December 23, 1980, Randy went to the San Dimas production facility to meet with Grover Jackson, the new head of the Charvel Manufacturing at that time. The Charvel factory was empty, since all of the employees had gone for the week of the Christmas holidays. Jackson sat in his office awaiting Randy's arrival. He recalls, "We sat there from noon until midnight and just talked about everything in the world. He brought a little scrap of paper that had four to five line drawings, saying, 'This is kinda what I want this guitar to look like.' We scribbled and made more drawings and he left."
Grover Jackson circa 1980.
Those line drawings featured an asymmetrical V-shaped guitar body, with the bottom wing shorter than the top. It was to have pinstripes and, like the Sandoval V, a neck-thru-body design, rather than a bolt-on neck. During this marathon conversation, Randy told Jackson he had already chosen a name for the guitar: The Concorde.
According to Jackson, Ozzy and Sharon (then Arden) had bought him a ticket on the Concorde to come home to the United States, and that's where he came up with the name. From a marketing point of view, Jackson was concerned about the general look of the guitar and how the company's name should be presented.
"Charvel, at the time, was producing bolt-on, Fender-style guitars. Well, here's this crazy batwing thing, and I was afraid that might dampen the sales of the Charvels," Jackson reveals, "so I asked Randy if he would mind if we put a different name on this instrument, because we were going to create this new thing that was not like the other stuff. So it was also out of fear that I didn't want to piss on what we already had going on."
The final detail to be sketched out was the headstock shape. In time, that shape would become the company's trademark.
"Randy had that body shape drawing and it needed something that sort of matched it in radical-ness," Jackson explains. "So I came up with the head. I had been a vintage guitar guy and was always a Gibson Explorer fan. I wondered what I could do to an Explorer head to make it more modern and aggressive looking. Randy and I sketched around that idea and came up with the head, which later became a trademark." Charvel began making the guitar a few days after Christmas and Randy went back to England after the holidays.
The line drawings turned into reality when Jackson transferred them to a piece of Baltic birch.
"We band-sawed it to shape and then sanded it as best we could to use that as a template on a pin router to cut out the body," recalls Jackson. "It was real Cro-Magnon stuff." That template went through quite a few edits so they'd only have to cut the body once. Jackson remembers the sculpting of the guitar as being prehistoric in technique when compared to today's production standards: "The body was screwed to the template and then run around the pin router. This was pre-vacuum fixtures and pre-toggle clamps. And then it was sanded and sent to the paint shop."
Jackson says he added the beveled edges while carving the body: "I was making some BC Rich Bich's right about that time for my friend Bernie Rico. Those had beveled edges and I added the beveled edges to the Rhoads body. I ripped off my buddy! I'm being honest, okay?"
Jackson continued work on this guitar with Charvel's woodshop foreman, Tim Wilson, who did all the woodworking at the factory. As Wilson remembers, this was going to be a big guitar.
"The whole center block was solid maple," he explains. "The wings were also maple. It was a big hunk of tree. This thing was going to weigh a ton."
The end result was a very pronounced V-shaped guitar with a lot of surface area. The neck joined the body at the 14th fret, and it featured 22 frets on a compound radius ebony fretboard with pearl block inlay and binding. The frets were Dunlop 6230s, which is considered a small fretwire in comparison to Gibson frets. This was basically Dunlop's version of Fender fretwire.
Wilson recalls how certain things were done by hand back then that would be considered obsolete by today's standards: "Compound radius makes the surface of the fretboard flatter as you move up the neck, which goes from 12" to 16" in radius. We shaped that by hand. The neck shape was thick, somewhat like a fifties-era Gibson Les Paul, which is what Randy specified, and it was 25 1/2" in scale."
And, like a Gibson, the nut width was 1 11/16". In contrast to the Sandoval V, this time Randy's aim was to have a guitar that had a Gibson sound and Fender playability. Like the Sandoval V, it also had a tremolo bridge. Made by metalsmith Bill Gerein for Charvel, this bridge was a production standard on many Charvel guitars at the time. It was made of brass with a heavy brass sustain block.
Also like the Sandoval V, it had two volume and two tone controls. The pickups were a Seymour Duncan Distortion at the bridge, and a Jazz model in the neck positions, both mounted to the body with solid brass pickup bezels, also made by Gerein. The selector switch was located along the outer edge of the upper wing of the guitar. The output jack was placed on the outside edge of the lower wing, where the V shape converges. It was painted white with black pinstripes, undercoated with polyester and finished in polyurethane. And, as Tim Wilson had predicted, it was a very heavy guitar.
Redesign for the Concorde
The first version of the Rhoads Concorde guitar was completed in late February or early March of 1981, and it was shipped to Randy in Europe. Randy would report back to Jackson that he was having trouble reaching the upper register frets. He was also concerned with public perception of the guitar, since fans were asking him if he'd cut up a Gibson Flying V. Approaching Jackson for another guitar, Rhoads wanted to have a second one made that was more radical, with a narrower V shape so that it would be more original looking; so people wouldn't think he'd butchered a Gibson.
"One of the things that wasn't cool was the guitar was just too big," Wilson is quick to point out. "The body shape was just too big and it was made out of maple, so it weighed a ton."
In October of 1981, Randy and Grover Jackson got together once again to scribble, draw and debate the design of another guitar. Jackson had prepared three neck-thru-body guitar blanks with headstocks on them; the wings or sides of the body were just blank pieces of material. He placed one on a table while Randy looked on.
Rhoads playing the second Concorde shortly before his death.
"We stood over a workbench and drew for several hours ... drew on the blanks, erased it, sanded it off and drew some more ... more here, less there, and finally Randy said, 'That's it'," remembers Jackson. With the crude pencil drawing on this piece of wood, Jackson took it to the bandsaw and carved the body, a procedure that Randy could not stand to watch. Laughingly, Jackson admits, "Some guys want to know about the mechanics like car guys would be. And some guys want to know none of that, and Randy was one of those guys. He couldn't watch me cut it on a bandsaw."
By the end of the day, Jackson had shaped the wood according to the pencil drawings and handed it to Randy so he could hold it and see how it felt and what it would look like. Having done that, he began planning the building process while Randy went off to begin the first leg of the 1981 Diary Of A Madman tour with Ozzy overseas.
By the time the tour landed in the US a couple of months later, manager Sharon Arden had built the Ozzy Osbourne show up to major headline status by investing in full production staging, lighting and tour staff. Full stage rehearsals were conducted at Francis Ford Coppola's Zoetrope studios in Hollywood before everyone headed to San Francisco to begin the tour. Meanwhile, in his San Dimas factory, Jackson had the second guitar built and completed. He delivered it to Randy on December 27 during the final rehearsals at Zoetrope. This version of the guitar had a much more distinctive shorter lower wing, making the upper wing much more pronounced.
"It had a simple elegance to it," says Jackson. Clearly, this was not a hacked-up Gibson Flying V.
Jackson with one of his latest projects.
Despite the success of the guitar's redesign, Randy seemed a little hesitant to dive into it. Jackson offers some insight, saying, "A strange little quirk about Randy in my memory—and other people might dispute this—Randy was superstitious about guitars. I made a guitar for Jeff Beck one time and he just took the guitar onstage and played it in front of thousands of people. Randy was the opposite of that. Boy, he wanted to look at the guitar and then put it away. The next day, he'd pick it up, hold it, put it down and he'd go away. And a few days later, he'd pick it up and he'd play it a little bit and then he'd put it away. He had to kind of get synced up to it. He was playing the guitar by the time he passed away. There are pictures of him playing it, but he didn't play it the whole show. It wasn't the only guitar he played, and he was warming up to it. I think he was happy with it."
Two and a half months later, Randy Rhoads was killed in a plane crash. He was dead at the age of 25. His death still echoes within those who knew him. Fans around the world were just discovering his fantastic guitar style, and then suddenly he was gone. Grover Jackson, who had just stepped off a plane himself to visit a girlfriend in Reno, received the news while he was still at the gate. He is quick to admit he was, "Stunned ... and I'm still stunned."
Jackson says he owes a large portion of the success of his company to Randy. In fact, "... a huge amount ... an unbelievable amount is owed to Randy." Today, Jackson manufactures motorcycle, medical and musical instrument parts. Reminiscing about his days with the Jackson/Charvel Guitar Company, he says, "I saw the company as a toolmaker. There were these guys that had a job, which happened to be playing guitar. We were trying to be a toolmaker for guys doing work."
Karl Sandoval in his southern California workshop.
As for Karl Sandoval, hearing of Randy's death is still a fresh memory: "I remember I was in my shop and one of my friends called. He said Randy Rhoads had been killed. I turned the radio on and sure enough, they were talking about it. It was something like how a local rockstar was tragically killed in a plane crash. I was sad and felt bad because he was so young."
In the years since, Sandoval has expanded his guitar manufacturing business to include a guitar building school in southern California. For more information, visit his website at karlsandoval.com.
The man who did much of the woodwork on the white pinstriped V guitar made for Randy, Tim Wilson, holds the experience in very high regard. He would later become Jackson Guitars' general manager, and he built the company into a major player in the guitar manufacturing game.
Retired and living in southern California, Wilson says in retrospect, "I thought it was just going to be a big hit. I really did, and I really thought we were onto something. If things went our way, we were going to be pretty big. So, I was pretty proud of it, and I'm still proud of it to this day. It's one of the proudest moments of my life, having the honor of working on that guitar."
[Updated 11/4/21]
Pacific Island pluckers had a hand in developing the beloved dreadnought acoustics, and changed the course of American guitar music.
In 1906, a devastating earthquake and three days of raging fires leveled 80 percent of San Francisco. Nine years later, to honor the opening of the Panama Canal and signal that San Francisco was back, the city held the Panama-Pacific International Exposition.
More than 18 million people visited. One of the most popular attractions was the Hawaiian Pavilion. Live music and hula dancing, integral parts of Hawaiian culture, were in the show, where they could be experienced on a large scale on the mainland for one of the first times.
That was the beginning of the Hawaiian music craze that had a good run in the U.S. until the Great Depression. Hawaiian musicians had already embraced the ukulele and steel-string guitar, originating the slide-based lap style (versus the typical, so-called Spanish-style playing orientation). Both instruments saw unprecedented demand on Hawaii and the mainland. The story of the ukulele is well-told, but in doing research for this article, I came across a funny comment that caught my eye: “It could be said that in the mid-1920s, Martin was a ukulele company that also made guitars!”
In early 1916, we made a large-body custom guitar for Hawaiian musician Major Kealakai. He ordered it through our largest distributor, Ditson. It was kind of a 0000-size, 12-fret, steel-string guitar with an extra-deep body. The Major and his band were touring the U.S. mainland, and he felt he needed a bigger, louder guitar.
Shortly after that, Ditson commissioned a new larger, pear-shaped steel-string guitar from us to capitalize on the growing interest in Hawaiian music. It was called the dreadnought. It had just 12 frets, a slotted headstock, and a sizable, resonant body. Initially, the dreadnought didn’t sell very well. We did find success, however, making many of our smaller-bodied guitars with steel strings set up for “Hawaiian-style” playing. These were often made with a koa-wood back and sides, and occasionally tops as well. Additionally, if players wanted to use our other guitars lap-style with a slide, Martin manufactured a nut extender to raise the strings far enough above the frets so they wouldn’t interfere.
“It could be said that in the mid-1920s, Martin was a ukulele company that also made guitars!”
While steel strings were available in the late 1800s, the quality was inconsistent. Thanks to the popularity of the banjo and the mandolin, steel-string quality improved. The steel string provided the extra volume many players were looking for.
During the Great Depression, Ditson suffered financial difficulties and was sold. We kept the dreadnought in the line and put the Martin name on it, but sales still remained low. In 1929, we made a one-off, 14-fret steel-string version of our 000-size guitar for a well-known vaudeville banjo player, Perry Bechtel. We squared off the shoulders to accommodate the 14-fret neck. He loved it—and we thought we were onto something.
Gibson also saw opportunity in larger-bodied guitars with steel strings and 14-fret necks. They introduced three new models in 1932: the HG-20, HG-22, and HG-24. The first two were slightly smaller than our dreadnought, and the third was slightly bigger. They realized the value of a 14-fret neck for modern playing styles with steel strings. But instead of squaring off the shoulders, they moved the bridge down and attached the neck to the slope-shouldered bodies.
Not only did those models have a traditional round soundhole, but they also had four f-holes and a sound baffle to try to compete with the newfangled resophonic guitars that were quite loud. But the Gibsons were not well received by consumers, and were eventually discontinued.
In 1934, we redesigned our dreadnought with square shoulders to accommodate a 14-fret neck. That same year, Gibson reintroduced the HG-24 body size with a single round soundhole—no more f-holes or sound baffle—and called it the Jumbo. The Martin Dreadnought and the Gibson J Series guitars are still wildly popular.
I do wonder if they would even exist today if Hawaiian music hadn’t entered the American-pop music sphere in the 1920s?
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This brand new design reimagines and elevates the original to new heights, featuring a fresh range of colors and a refined slim Headlock system. The enhanced MONO Sleeve is engineered for durability, featuring industrial-grade webbing handles reinforced with steel rivets and bar-tack stitching, a water-resistant 420D shell, and plush interior lining. A spacious front pocket offers easy access to essentials like cables, tuners, and other gear, while the ergonomic shoulder straps ensure comfort during long-distance commutes. Sleek and compact, the MONO M80 Sleeve 2.0 is the perfect choice for guitarists on the go.
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The updated Sleeve 2.0 is available in classic Black and Ash, and for the first time in MONO’s history, debuts a range of new colors: Moonlight Blue, Amazon Green, and Burnt Orange, giving artists fresh avenues to express themselves through their gear.
The MONO M80 Sleeve 2.0 features include:
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Your esteemed hosts of the 100 Guitarists podcast have been listening to Randy Rhoads’s body of work since they learned the word “pentatonic.” His short discography with Ozzy Osbourne has been emblazoned on both of our fingertips, and we’ve each put in our hours working out everything from the “Crazy Train” riff to the fingerpicked intro to “Diary of a Madman.” But in our extended Premier Guitar fam, we have an expert who’s been studying Randy’s licks since longer than either of us have been alive.
On this episode, we’re thrilled to be joined by Chris Shiflett—best known to you as the host of Shred with Shifty or as the Foo Fighters’s foremost expert on Randy Rhoads. Since growing up with these riffs in his ears, Shifty’s been making tokens of tribute to the later guitar slinger, from bespoke t-shirts to stuffed guitars.
Join us for Shiflett’s Randy Rhoads primer, learn why you should crank the outro to “S.A.T.O.” as loud as you can, and what Ozzy song makes this Foo cry.
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For the first time, Dave Grohl, Pat Smear, and Chris Shiflett discuss their shared 6-string history, breakdown some Foos riffs, and give insight on 30 years of rock and roll.
Over the past 30 years, Foo Fighters have become one of the most influential and important bands in rock and roll. Through countless gigs from clubs and theaters to arenas and stadiums, the trio of Dave Grohl, Pat Smear, and Chris Shiflett have developed a vocabulary that at this point comes together naturally. It’s a shared language that is always present but rarely (if ever) discussed. Until now.
Back in February, the trio convened in Studio 607 for a sitdown that is destined to be an instant classic among Shred with Shiftydiehards. Below are a few excerpts from the conversation—edited for clarity—that hit on what first inspired Dave and Pat to pick up a guitar, why there was so much feedback at Germs gigs, and that one time they ran into Joe Bonamassa at Guitar Center. You can watch the full episode on YouTube, where they break down “Hey, Johnny Park!,” “La Dee Da,” “Rope,” and so much more. — Jason Shadrick
Chris Shiflett: Alrighty, fellas, let's jump into it. You're in the hot seat now.
Dave Grohl: Oh God. Here we go.
Shiflett: Let's start off easy. What are you playing today?
Grohl: This is my signature DG-335 Epiphone and it's fucking rad. Love it. Been playing it on tour.
Pat Smear: It's not even out.
Dave: Is it not out yet?
Smear: No. Only rumors.
Shiflett: For the sake of this interview, it might be out by the time this airs, so we could be in a time machine. Pat, how did you go from being a guy who famously borrowed guitars at Germs gigs, didn't own one of your own, to the man we see here today with a barn full of guitars?
Smear: That's why, because I didn't even have my own guitar, so I'm like, well, now I need two.
Shiflett: … hundred … thousand. [laughs]. What are you playing today?
Smear: I am playing prototype number one, made by Mike McGuire from the Gibson Custom Shop. It's a Mini Barney Kessel Triburst prototype from 2011. May 11th, 2011.
Shiflett: Do you also have a baritone back there?
Smear: I do. My Hagstrom baritones are on tour, so that's my SG baritone. It's a funny guitar. I'm told that it was originally going to be a Buckethead model, his new model, and he just disappeared. So, they put it out as a baritone.
Grohl: He flew the coop?
Shiflett: When you first came back to the Foos, why did you land on a baritone so much of the time? Had you played much baritone prior to that?
Smear: I played one a little bit. I played one on The Color and the Shape album. That sounded great, but I never played it live. But then, what am I going to do? There are already two guitar players. When we were doing Wasting Light, I'm like, “What am I going to fit in here? Well, nobody's playing baritone. I'll pull that out.”
Grohl: And that’s the story of the Foo Fighters. [laughs]
Shiflett: What made you guys want to be guitar players in the first place? Because probably a lot of people don't know that the guitar actually came before drums, right?
Grohl: Yeah. My father was a classically trained flautist, and my mother bought him a nylon-string, which I don't think he ever played, but it sat in the corner of the room like a piece of furniture, and by the time I got to it I was maybe like eight or nine years old and it maybe had two or three strings on it. I picked it up and played “Smoke on the Water” or something like that. I understood where to put my hands on the frets, and then I was like, “wow, this is cool.”
Shiflett: Did you ever take lessons?
Grohl: I took a few lessons when I first started playing, and I was disappointed because I wanted to learn how to play chords so I could play along to things. I could hear the songs and sort of figure them out, but I was stuck with just getting my little-kid stuff together. And then the teacher started to try to teach me classical. I remember he taught me this thing. [plays short classical piece].
Smear: It worked! It's still there.
Grohl: I was like, fuck that shit.
“I don't even know what a good guitar sound is, but I do know when I play an old Trini through the Tone Master, I really have control over what I'm doing.” — Dave Grohl
Shiflett: What about you, Pat? What made you want to be a guitar player?
Smear: It was my sister Ingrid, who is a couple of years older. She had a nylon-string acoustic guitar in the house. I had those forced piano lessons when I was a kid, and I would cry through the whole thing. I hated it so much, and then I picked up the guitar and I'm like, “Oh, well, that's my thing.” But it was really [Alice Cooper’s] Love it to Death. That picture on the back cover. I'm like, I want to do this. I want to play that.
Shiflett: It's funny how that still informs your guitar choices. Who would you consider your primary guitar influences?
Grohl: I really liked Ace Frehley. I mean, I had a Beatles chord book, and that's where I was learning to play chords and stuff, but I never saw footage of the Beatles playing when I was eight or nine. I just thought Ace was so fucking cool looking, and I loved the way he stood, and I loved his Les Paul, and I thought that I could be a guitarist and look like him without all the fucking heels and the makeup and shit.
Smear: I don't know that I had one. I had a bunch. I had all the usual ones, but I thought Mick Ronson was the coolest, but as far as the playing, it was the Alice Cooper guys.
It wasn’t until the band started recording Wasting Light, that Pat Smear dived into the baritone guitar. “What am I going to fit in here?” thought Smear. “Well, nobody's playing baritone. I'll pull that out.”
Shiflett: When did you figure out that you needed a certain kind of gear to make it sound like the record?
Dave: It's funny. My mother bought me a Silvertone, like an old one from Sears with an amp in the case and everything, and it was cool. But then I found out about a distortion pedal. I don't know how, but I think I was in a music store and I saw one, and I said to my mom, I was like, “oh my God, mom, can I get it?” It was 30 bucks. It was an MXR. And I was like, “This is going to make it sound so much better.” And she's like, “Oh, good.” And we buy it and bring it home. After I plugged it in, she was like, “I thought you said it was going to make it sound good!”
Shiflett: It's distorting the sound. [Laughs]
Dave: Yeah, it doesn't sound good.
Shiflett: I had a little solid-state practice amp, and I'd go home and I'd try to play whatever I learned in my lesson and it wouldn't grit up at all. And you'd just kind of be confused. Why doesn't this sound like the Ozzy record? It doesn’t sound right!
Smear: I know! I never knew anything about that part of it.
Grohl: Well, you didn't even have any fucking gear. [Laughs]
Smear: I didn't even have gear. I didn't have a guitar. I didn't have an amp.
Shiflett: What was the time that you showed up at a Germs show and had to borrow somebody else's gear?
Smear: Well, that happened all the time, but the worst one was we were playing with X and I broke my guitar in the first song, and so I'm like, “I need Billy Zoom's guitar!” And, dude, I found out he was hiding in some closet with his guitar saying, “Keep him away from my fucking guitar.” I'm all drunk. I think somebody just taped it back together and we were okay.
Grohl: Is this why there was always so much fucking feedback at Germs gigs? You had no pedals, you would just crank the amp?
Smear: Well, if there was a pedal, I would just step on it and leave it there. And my favorite when I hear old tapes is tuning full volume with the pedal on.
Shiflett: Well, let's talk a little bit about your live rigs that you've gotten nowadays and how that's kind of changed over the years.
Smear: Yeah, Dave, talk about your live rig. [Laughs]
Grohl: Okay, just a disclaimer. I don't know a fucking thing. At first I was playing a Marshall, it was like a JCM 900 or something like that. For the first [Foo Fighters] album, that's what I was playing.
Shiflett: Pedals? No pedals?
Grohl: I really think I only had a RAT pedal and a fucking tuner. I don't think I had any delays or phasers or anything yet. I think I just had a RAT. Then eventually the Mesa/Boogies came along and it was like Dual Rectifiers and 4x12s and that kind of stuff. And then eventually I found one of those [Fender] Tone Masters at Norman’s [Rare Guitars]. And he was like, “These are great, man. This is what Aerosmith used on all of their cool shit.” I've stuck with them ever since. And the thing is that, I mean, I don't even know what a good guitar sound is, but I do know when I play an old Trini through that, I really have control over what I'm doing. I don't have any volume pedals or anything like that. I've got four channels of clean to dirty.
Shiflett: You do have a pretty straightforward live set up. Not a ton of pedals, just phaser and delay and a couple of things.
Grohl: And I can roll [the volume knob] a lot. I mean, that's the thing with the Trini is that they're kind of reactive. They're dynamic and you can make them do …
Shiflett: It leaves a lot in your hands.
Grohl: It does. And especially when you're running around the stage and I don't have 20 seconds to get back to a pedalboard, then I could just roll up and down and just do it in the hands.
“But it was really [Alice Cooper’s] Love it to Death. That picture on the back cover. I'm like, I want to do this. I want to play that.” — Pat Smear
Shiflett: It's interesting. When I joined the band I was playing through a Dual Rectifier and I think you were playing through a Dual Rectifier live, but I was surprised to learn that for Nothing Left to Lose you had used the Trini and old vintage AC-30s and Memory Man, and Hiwatts, so your studio thing and your live thing were very different.
Grohl: I remember having that conversation with my guitar tech at the time, and the justification was basically, if one of those things goes down while we're on the road, we're kind of screwed. And so the Rectifiers were really consistent and you didn't have a lot of problems with them, and if you needed to find another one, they were easy to find.
Smear: And they'd send them like that. [snaps fingers]
Grohl: Yeah, they'd be really quick. And we were just doing that because we were blazing through gigs so much.
Shiflett: I don't remember which tour cycle it was, but there was just a point where when you got that Tone Master and I came in with a Friedman and a something else or an AC, I forget what it was, all of a sudden it went from that to this completely other tone thing live.
Smear: We all had the Mesas.
Grohl: I think we had gotten to the point where we all had sort of three different sounds and three different duties in the band, and so we all started to focus more on that.
Both Grohl and Shiflett are armed with their respective signature guitars. Grohl’s recently released Epiphone DG-335 has been long requested by fans, while Shiflett’s Tele Deluxe will soon get a refresh.
Shiflett: I never had any effect pedals until I joined the band. Can you believe that?
Grohl: Wow.
Shiflett: Never, never played with a delay pedal or a flanger or any of that stuff in my life. And when we first started doing those rehearsals and there were songs like “Aurora” and “Generator” and stuff that had some color, that was when I had to first learn how to do that.
Grohl: I think that a lot of what we do comes from the studio. When we go in to record songs, the basic idea is usually pretty simple and we'll pull that together and then we start to color it with different things, different sections of the song, different effects, different tones, and things like that. And also the arrangement or composition of the three of us doing what we do since we don't want to just do the same thing all the time. I think it took 15 or 20 years for us to figure out the recipe or combination of what we do.
Shiflett: I wanted to talk to you about, “Hey, Johnny Park!” I remember when I bought that record, putting that song on and the big drums came in and then the guitars kicked in, it's like a guitar solo and there wasn't a lot of that in your music, and there really wasn't a lot of that even in alternative rock at that time. I was listening to the recorded version last night and it sounds like maybe it's like a Big Muff or something in that part? Do you remember what guitars you were playing? What amps, pedals, all that sort of stuff?
Grohl: I'm sure on that I was playing through a combination of amps. I think one was old Marshall. I think another might've been a Hiwatt. I don't remember what we had in there.
Smear: The only amp I remember was when you used that smokey cigarette amp. I don't even remember what song it was. But you used that on something.
Shiflett: What was your main go-to guitar back then?
Grohl: I was using the Trini a lot.
Shiflett: Oh, you had it even back then?
Grohl: Yeah, I got the Trini before Foo Fighters. I got it at this place called Southworth Guitars in Bethesda, Maryland, and there was a row of 335s and they're all red. They all kind of looked the same. And then there was this one with this different headstock and it had these diamond f-holes. I knew nothing about it. I didn't know anything about Trini Lopez. And it turned out great. It's the same one that I've used on fucking everything.
Shiflett: How many Trinis do you have? Vintage old ones?
Grohl: Maybe like five or six of them.
Shiflett: I didn't know if you were the Joe Bonamassa of Trinis.
Grohl: No, I’m not the Joe Bonamassa of anything.
Shiflett: I bet Joe Bonamassa is probably the Joe Bonamassa of Trinis. [Laughs.] That reminds me. My favorite guitar shopping moment with Pat was when we were making the last album and we were sitting there and we ran over to the rock and roll Guitar Center, and we went into the vintage room and we're looking at guitars.
Smear: Was Bonamassa there taking apart a Strat?
Shiflett: Yes, but the part that always sticks in my head is there was a 1997 Les Paul and they called it “vintage.” I was like, what? Really? God, how fucking vintage are we? [Laughs.]
Grohl: I just think we’re “used.”